Utility Security Podcast
Expert intel through interviews with security chiefs, tech wizards, and policy shapers. Tune in as we explore the latest vulnerabilities, industry best practices, and inspiring stories of resilience from the frontline heroes keeping our grids secure.
Utility Security Podcast – Deep Dive – Rocking the Boat – Why Utility Security Must Challenge the Status Quo
In the utility sector, the most formidable adversaries aren’t always external threats. Often, the biggest hurdles are internal: complacency, misconceptions, and parochialism. In this episode, we dive into the critical need to challenge the “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” mindset. Discover why this internal resistance can be more dangerous than any external threat actor and learn practical strategies to dismantle these obstacles, foster a holistic security culture, and build a truly resilient and sustainable protection stance for our critical infrastructure.
Read the article written by Jim Willis – https://utilitysecurity.com/blog/rocking-the-boat-why-challenging-the-status-quo-is-essential-for-protection/
Key Takeaways
- Internal Obstacles are Formidable: The greatest challenges to enhancing utility security are often internal biases and resistance to change, specifically complacency (“it hasn’t happened yet”), misconceptions about security, and parochialism (departmental silos).
- Complacency is the “Silent Assassin”: A false sense of security, often built on a long period without a critical incident, leads to relaxed protocols and slashed budgets, leaving the organization vulnerable.
- Compliance Does Not Equal Security: Simply meeting minimum regulatory standards (like NERC-CIP) is not a comprehensive security strategy. A robust posture must be proactive, holistic, and continually evolving.
- Security is a Shared Responsibility: Effective security is not just an IT problem, a silver bullet technology, or the sole responsibility of law enforcement. It requires a collaborative, “all-hands-on-deck” approach that breaks down departmental silos and involves every employee.
- Challenging the Status Quo is Essential: To stay ahead of evolving threats, security professionals must be willing to “rock the boat” and push for change, even if it’s unpopular. This involves fostering cross-departmental collaboration, promoting an “all in the same boat” attitude, and leveraging industry partnerships.
3 Questions & Answers
1. Q: The article mentions “complacency” as vigilance’s silent assassin. Why is this specific mindset so dangerous in the utility industry? A: Complacency is dangerous because security threats are often intangible and can be easily overlooked. A utility might go decades without a major incident, which creates a false sense of security. This “it hasn’t happened yet” attitude leads to security budgets being cut, protocols becoming optional, and a static security posture that is completely unprepared for the modern, evolving threat landscape.
2. Q: What is one of the biggest misconceptions about security that the article debunks? A: A primary misconception is that compliance equals security. Many utilities believe that by meeting the minimum regulatory requirements, like NERC-CIP standards, they are secure. The article argues that this is just “ticking off boxes.” A truly robust security stance is proactive, inclusive, and protects against emerging threats on all fronts, going far beyond any minimum compliance standard.
3. Q: The article talks about “parochialism,” or departmental silos. How can an organization overcome this “it’s not my problem” mindset? A: To overcome parochialism, security must be redefined as a corporate-wide effort. The article suggests fostering cross-departmental collaboration through joint security task groups (with members from IT, OT, physical security, HR, etc.), promoting an “all in the same boat” attitude through comprehensive training so every employee understands their role, and leveraging industry partnerships like ISACs to build a strong collective defense.
#UtilitySecurity #CriticalInfrastructure #CyberSecurity #SecurityCulture #RiskManagement
Utility Security Podcast – Deep Dive – Substation Intrusion – Are You Ready To Respond?
Substation Intrusion – Are You Ready To Respond?
Written by Ross Johnson on August 26, 2025. Posted in Infrastructure Security.
A critical security breach at a power substation on Christmas morning. It’s a nightmare scenario, but one that utilities must be prepared for. In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, we explore the vital, yet often overlooked, steps required to forge an unbreakable link between utility security and local law enforcement. Discover why a simple 911 call is a “massive failure in preparation” and how to proactively equip police with the context and logistical details they need for a rapid and effective response.
Dive deep into the strategies that can drastically reduce police response times, as highlighted in a real-world case study from the Pacific Northwest where coordination slashed response from 12 to just 5 minutes. Learn about the importance of sharing threat intelligence, prioritizing critical sites, and using innovative tech like What3words for pinpoint location accuracy. For a more in-depth look at this topic, check out our companion article: Substation Intrusion: Are You Ready to Respond?
Key Takeaways
- Proactive communication is key: Don’t wait for an emergency to establish a relationship with local law enforcement. Regularly share intelligence, detail the potential community impact of an outage, and jointly develop response plans.
- Response time dictates physical security: The time it takes for police to arrive directly informs the level of physical hardening required for a substation. A longer response time necessitates stronger fences, gates, and locks.
- Scripting 911 calls is crucial: Vague language can lead to a low-priority dispatch. Use pre-agreed, scripted phrases that clearly communicate the severity of the situation to ensure an immediate, high-priority response.
- Technology can save precious minutes: Tools like What3words for precise location mapping and secure, real-time video feeds can provide law enforcement with invaluable situational awareness during an incident.
- Joint training is non-negotiable: Conduct regular walkthroughs and scenario-based drills with police to test communication protocols and identify weaknesses in the response plan before a real incident occurs.
Questions and Answers
Q1: Why is simply calling 911 during a substation intrusion considered a “massive failure in preparation”?
A1: It’s considered a failure because, without prior coordination, the 911 dispatcher and responding officers will lack the critical context to understand the severity of the event. They may treat the call as a simple trespassing or property damage incident, leading to a delayed, low-priority response. This lack of preparation means the police won’t have the necessary logistical information, such as access codes, key locations, or an understanding of the immense public safety risk, which could result in catastrophic damage before they can effectively intervene.
Q2: What is the “de-energization dilemma” and how can utilities solve it?
A2: The “de-energization dilemma” refers to the fact that police officers are not trained to and will not enter a high-voltage substation while it is energized due to the extreme danger. To solve this, utilities must establish a clear, rapid, and rock-solid internal procedure for de-energizing the site, or a specific part of it, to allow for safe entry. This includes designating who has the authority to make that call 24/7 and ensuring they can be contacted instantly. This entire process should be practiced in joint drills with law enforcement.
Q3: How does police response time directly influence a substation’s physical security engineering?
A3: The estimated police response time is a foundational metric for designing a substation’s physical security. The security measures—fences, gates, locks, and other barriers—must be engineered to resist intruders for a duration that is
at least as long as the police response time. For example, if the police have a guaranteed 12-minute response time, the facility’s physical barriers must be rated to delay an intruder for a minimum of 12 minutes. If the delay rating is less than the response time, you have engineered a “window for failure”.
Utility Security Podcast – How Lidar & 3D Modeling are improving Utility Security
Editor Curtis Marquardt has a conversation with Martin Vojtek from Hexagon to discuss their work with EG. D, a Czech Republic Electric Utility that serves nearly three million customers, to secure substations using Lidar technology. Vojtek shares what expectations EG.D had for the technology and how they utilized the solution to not only achieve security goals, but safety and maintenance goals as well.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #DisasterResponse #CriticalInfrastructure #UtilityResilience #Lidar
Utility Security Podcast – Disaster Response Security – Proven Strategies with VRP Group’s Ross Falisi
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, host Curtis Marquardt, Jr. sits down with Ross Falisi of VRP Group—a seasoned expert in utility and disaster security. As hurricane, flood, and wildfire seasons ramp up, utilities must prepare to protect both their people and their reputation in the face of increasing threats—from natural disasters to civil unrest and targeted attacks.
Ross shares actionable strategies drawn from real-world experience, including how to build effective disaster response plans, why flexibility (or “Semper Gumby”) is essential, how to safely manage worker camps, and why hiring the right kind of security firm can make or break your operation. Whether you’re a utility executive, storm boss, or security leader, this episode is packed with frontline-tested insights that can help you prevent chaos, control risk, and come out of a crisis stronger than before.
Key Takeaways:
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Preparation is critical, but flexibility is what sustains effective disaster response.
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Command and control structures are vital—especially in chaotic, resource-limited environments.
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Camps for crews must be secured and alcohol-free to reduce risk of injury, crime, and reputation damage.
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Not all security is created equal: Vet security vendors thoroughly and ensure they specialize in disaster environments.
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Community engagement, cultural awareness, and proper de-escalation training are essential to protect both workers and public relations.
3 Q&As from the Episode:
Q1: Why should utilities prohibit alcohol in worker camps during disaster response?
A: Because 90% of camp incidents—injuries, assaults, and more—can be linked to intoxication. Eliminating alcohol drastically reduces operational risk.
Q2: What’s “Semper Gumby” and why is it important?
A: It’s the mindset of staying flexible. Even with a great plan, conditions change fast. Flexibility helps teams adapt while maintaining control and safety.
Q3: Why are off-duty police officers not always the best security option?
A: While experienced, they’re legally bound to public duties first. In disaster scenarios, this can compromise your assets and operations. Specialized, contracted security teams ensure focus, structure, and accountability.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #DisasterResponse #CriticalInfrastructure #UtilityResilience #FieldCrewSafety #StormRecoverySecurity
Utility Security Podcast: Defending Utilities from the Drone Threat: Expert Strategies
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, host Curtis Marquardt welcomes back Bill Edwards of Phoenix 6 Consulting to discuss the growing threat of drones (UAS) to critical infrastructure. They explore how rapidly evolving drone technology—like first-person view (FPV) control and signal-dark modes—poses unique detection and mitigation challenges. Bill breaks down the latest federal executive orders, outlines proactive, low-cost steps utilities can take now, and emphasizes the importance of risk assessment, training, and layered detection strategies. Whether you’re a utility security professional, emergency planner, or critical infrastructure manager, this episode provides expert insight on preparing for the next wave of air-domain threats. Stay ahead of evolving risks and learn practical ways to safeguard your assets, teams, and communities against this rapidly growing challenge.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
Key Takeaways
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Drone technology is evolving rapidly—with new capabilities like FPV control and signal-dark modes making detection harder.
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Executive Orders signal growing federal support—but mitigation authority remains largely federal, requiring local facilities to prepare now.
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Proactive planning matters—even without mitigation authority, utilities can do risk assessments, training, and policy development.
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Layered detection is key—combining RF sensors, radar, optical, and acoustic approaches.
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Education is foundational—understanding the threat ecosystem is essential for smart, cost-effective security investments.
3 Questions and Answers
Q1: Why is the drone threat to utilities growing so quickly?
A: Drone technology is advancing in weeks, not years. Features like first-person view (FPV), improved payload capacity, and “dark mode” make drones cheaper, easier to control precisely, and harder to detect.
Q2: What can utilities do if mitigation authority is federal-only?
A: They can still act now with low- or no-cost steps: educate leadership, assess vulnerabilities, develop emergency response plans, and integrate air-domain awareness into existing security programs.
Q3: How can utilities improve drone detection?
A: By implementing layered detection strategies using radio frequency sensors, radar for non-emitting drones, high-fidelity optical cameras, and acoustic sensors—ensuring redundancy and coverage.
#UtilitySecurity #DroneThreat #CriticalInfrastructure #AirDomainAwareness #EmergencyPreparedness
Theft, Ballistic Threats & Explosives, Oh My! – Dominic Dillon & Curtis Marquardt
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, host Curtis Marquardt engages with Dominic Dillon of 3B Protection to delve into the escalating threats facing utility infrastructures, including theft, ballistic attacks, and explosive devices. They discuss how 3B Protection’s innovative solutions, such as advanced barriers and EMP-resistant materials, are evolving to meet these challenges. The conversation also covers the importance of fire-resistant materials and the role of integrated security systems in safeguarding critical utility assets. Listeners will gain insights into the latest technologies and strategies for enhancing the resilience of utility infrastructures.
Read the article: https://utilitysecurity.com/blog/theft-ballistic-threats-explosives-oh-my/
Key Takeaways:
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Evolving Threat Landscape: Utility infrastructures are increasingly targeted by sophisticated threats, necessitating advanced protective measures.
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Advanced Barrier Solutions: 3B Protection offers barriers designed to withstand ballistic impacts, forced entries, and explosive forces, enhancing physical security.
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EMP and HEMP Protection: Incorporating copper-based compounds into building materials can shield facilities from electromagnetic pulses and high electromagnetic fields.
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Fire Resistance Standards: Adhering to ASTM E119 standards ensures that materials can withstand extreme temperatures and direct water exposure, crucial for fire-prone areas.
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Integrated Security Systems: Collaborations, like that between 3B Protection and Convergint, aim to provide comprehensive and cost-effective security solutions for utilities.
5 Questions & Answers:
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Q: What types of threats are modern utility infrastructures facing?
A: Utilities are confronting a range of threats, including theft, ballistic attacks, forced entries, and the use of explosives, all of which require robust and adaptive security measures.
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Q: How does 3B Protection’s technology address these threats?
A: 3B Protection develops specialized barriers and materials that provide resistance against ballistic impacts, forced entries, and explosive forces, enhancing the physical security of utility sites.
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Q: Why is EMP protection important for utilities?
A: Electromagnetic pulses can disrupt or damage electronic systems. Incorporating EMP-resistant materials helps ensure the continued operation of critical infrastructure during such events.
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Q: What is the significance of the ASTM E119 fire resistance standard?
A: ASTM E119 sets the benchmark for fire resistance, ensuring that materials can endure high temperatures and direct water exposure, which is vital for preventing fire-related damages in utility infrastructures.
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Q: How do integrated security solutions benefit utility companies?
A: Integrated solutions, like those from 3B Protection and Convergint, offer comprehensive security by combining various protective measures, leading to enhanced safety and potential cost savings for utility companies.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #InfrastructureProtection #EMPProtection #FireResistance #CriticalInfrastructure #UtilitySecurity
Beyond the Fence – Strengthening Substation Security Through Threat Assessments
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, we explore the critical challenges facing substation security and the importance of comprehensive threat assessments. Inspired by Jim Willis’s article, Substation Security Challenges: Conducting Threat Assessments, we break down the three main threat categories—consequential, indirect, and direct threats—and explain why “hope is an expensive commodity” when it comes to protecting essential infrastructure.
From increasing risks of cyberattacks and vandalism to natural disasters and social unrest, our discussion dives into real-world examples, proactive defense strategies, and the four-step process to securing substations. Tune in to learn how utilities can stay ahead of evolving threats and keep the power grid resilient.
Key Takeaways:
✔️ Threat assessments are essential—security isn’t just about fences and cameras.
✔️ Utilities face three main types of threats: consequential (social/political unrest), indirect (natural disasters), and direct (deliberate attacks).
✔️ Understanding attacker motivations—from activists to cybercriminals—helps shape better defenses.
✔️ The four-step threat assessment process identifies vulnerabilities and prepares utilities for the worst.
✔️ Physical security, cybersecurity, and emergency response all play a role in protecting substations.
✔️ Trust and transparency between utilities, employees, and the public are key to a safer grid.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #SubstationSecurity #CriticalInfrastructure #CyberThreats #PowerGridProtection #ThreatAssessment
ISC West 2025 Preview – How ISC West is Shaping the Future of Utility Security
Editor-in-Chief Curtis Marquardt Jr. sat down with Mary Beth Shaughnessy, Vice President of ISC Events at RX, and Ron Hawkins, Senior Director of Industry Relations at the Security Industry Association (SIA), to discuss how security professionals can maximize their experience at ISC West 2025. Taking place March 31 – April 4 at the Venetian Expo, this year’s event features an extra day of education and expanded focus areas, including cybersecurity, drones, robotics, and more.
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, we dive into ISC West 2025, the premier event for security professionals. Mary Beth Shaughnessy (Event VP for ISC Events) and Ron Hawkins (Senior Director of Industry Relations at SIA) join us to discuss what makes ISC West the Super Bowl of Security and why utility professionals can’t afford to miss it.
From cutting-edge cybersecurity and AI advancements to exclusive networking events and educational sessions, ISC West offers a one-of-a-kind experience for those safeguarding our nation’s critical infrastructure. Tune in to hear what’s new, how utilities can benefit, and why this year’s event is set to be the biggest yet!
Key Takeaways:
✔️ ISC West 2025 is expanding its cybersecurity offerings to address growing threats.
✔️ Over 750 exhibitors will showcase the latest in perimeter security, AI, and emerging tech.
✔️ The event will feature 110+ educational sessions tailored to critical infrastructure professionals.
✔️ Utility security experts can network with industry leaders and policymakers in dedicated events.
✔️ A special Protecting Utilities Lunch will bring together top voices in the field.
✔️ Don’t miss the AI Discovery Zone, featuring the latest advancements in artificial intelligence for security.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #ISCWest #Cybersecurity #AI #CriticalInfrastructure #SecurityConference
From Vulnerability to Strength – Utility Security Strategies – Jim Willis, MSc, CMAS, CHS1
In this episode of the Utility Security Podcast, we sit down with Jim Willis, CEO of Indev Tactical, to discuss the growing security challenges facing utilities today. From the increasing number of substation attacks to mass shooting preparedness, Jim shares invaluable insights from his extensive experience in the field. We cover best practices for securing substations, the importance of vendor selection, and how to implement effective security training without overwhelming employees. With evolving threats, including drones used for surveillance and attacks, utilities must stay ahead of the curve. Tune in to learn how to enhance your security posture and protect critical infrastructure.
Key Takeaways:
- Understanding Utility Security Risks – Why attacks on substations and infrastructure are increasing.
- Mass Shooting Preparedness – How to train effectively without causing unnecessary panic.
- Vendor Selection – Why not every vendor is a security expert and how to choose the right one.
- Beyond Cybersecurity – Why physical security and personnel safety are just as critical.
- The Role of Drones – How drones are being used for both inspections and attacks.
- Public Perception Shifts – Why utilities are now seen as adversaries and what that means for security.
- Training Matters – Why employees should have security skills to match their technical skills.
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
#UtilitySecurity #GridProtection #CriticalInfrastructure #MassShootingPreparedness #SubstationSecurity #CyberThreats #SecurityTraining #JimWillis #InfrastructureProtection #UtilitySafety
Utility Security Podcast – Securing the Future – Fredrik Nilsson on AI, Cybersecurity, and Utility Threats
Join us as we explore the cutting-edge of utility security with Fredrik Nilsson, VP of Americas for Axis Communications. Recorded live at ISC East in New York, this episode delves into the growing challenges of cyberattacks, drone threats, and copper theft. Discover actionable solutions, like proactive cybersecurity measures, drone detection technologies, and AI-powered innovations, from one of the leading voices in video surveillance and IoT integration. Don’t miss this deep dive into the strategies shaping the future of utility security.
Key Takeaways:
- Cybersecurity for Utilities: How proactive measures and processes enhance defense against growing cyber threats.
- Drone Defense: Advanced technologies for detecting and tracking drone incursions near critical infrastructure.
- Copper Theft Solutions: Leveraging light-sensitive and thermal cameras to deter and prevent theft.
- AI in Security: The evolution of analytics and AI for smarter, cost-effective surveillance and operational efficiency.
- Addressing Talent Shortages: Programs and initiatives to train and attract talent into the utility security industry.
#UtilitySecurity #CyberThreats #DroneDefense #CopperTheft #AISecurity #UtilityInnovation #GridSafety #ISCNewYork #AxisCommunications
Tune in to stay updated and informed about securing our nation’s utilities!
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
Utility Security Podcast – Resources to Help You Protect Your Customers from Scams – A Conversation with Utilities United Against Scams Executive Director Michelle Martinez
May 29, 2024
Many electric, water, and natural gas customers throughout the country are being targeted by impostor utility scams each day. Scammers typically use phone, in-person, and online tactics to target customers. Raising awareness and educating customers about scams is Utilities United Against Scams (UUAS) top priority. UUAS will continue to help spread awareness of the suspicious behaviors and the evolving tactics that scammers use to target customers. It is important that customers call their utilities directly to check on the status of their accounts if they are ever unsure about the authenticity of a caller or the identity of a service worker, or if they suspect any fraudulent activity.
Subscribe to Utility Security Magazine at no cost! – https://utilitysecurity.com/subscribe-now/
14 min. with Michelle Martinez
Utility Security Podcast – Drones – Why They are a Threat – Leo McCluskey from Echodyne
April 29, 2024
This podcast discusses drone detection for utilities.
The speaker, Leo McCluskey from Echodyne, discusses various ways drones can be a threat to utilities and how difficult it can be to detect them because they can be modified to avoid detection.
He recommends a layered approach to drone detection that includes radar, optical cameras, and acoustic sensors.
McCluskey says that currently utilities can only call law enforcement if they see a drone but there are efforts underway to change regulations to allow utilities to take more aggressive action.
In the future, McCluskey expects to see more good drones being used for things like security purposes and better data sharing to help identify bad drones.
Connect with Leo – https://www.linkedin.com/in/leomccloskey/
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24 min. with Leo McCluskey
Utility Security Podcast – Rajesh Krishnan – Live from The Utility Cyber Security Forum
March 22, 2024
Securing the Grid: An Interview with Rajesh on IoT & OT Security
With special guest Rajesh Krishnan – Head of Product Marketing at Asimily
This episode dives deep into the critical world of IoT and OT security for utility companies. Our guest, Rajesh, tackles head-on the complacency some utilities face and the potential consequences of neglecting these vital safeguards. We explore the unique challenges of securing OT environments, including the “invisibility” of certain devices, and how to overcome them. The conversation tackles the growing threat landscape and the prediction that OT attacks may rise alongside advancements in IT security. Rajesh offers valuable insights for utility security professionals, outlining key strategies to fortify their defenses. We wrap up with a glimpse into the future of IoT and OT security, exploring where the biggest changes and risks are likely to unfold in the coming years. Don’t miss this essential discussion for anyone invested in the resilience and safety of our nation’s power grid.
Connect with Rajesh – https://www.linkedin.com/in/rfkrishnan/
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13 min. with Rajesh Krishnan
Utility Security Podcast – COL(R) Bill Edwards – Are You Ready for a Drone Attack on Your Infrastructure?
February 19, 2024
Welcome to this first episode of The Utility Security Podcast with Colonel Bill Edwards.
In this episode we dive in with drone security expert Bill Edwards. He discusses Why You Should be Establishing a Drone Emergency Response Plan Now!
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About COL(R) Bill Edwards: COL(R) Bill Edwards is a thought leader and is currently President of Federal at Building Intelligence Inc. Most recently he worked for Thornton Tomasetti as a senior executive and offers over 35 years of combined experience and expertise in operational, technical, and electronic security consulting, counter-terrorism, counter-intelligence, surveillance, and counter-surveillance efforts. Most recently, he has built and led a successful security consulting business group that provides expert advice in any vertical market as it applies to threat, vulnerability, and risk assessment (TVRA), electronic security system design (ESD), and security operations center design (SOC). He also provides a myriad of additional services that include Cybersecurity TVRA, electronic security audits, and red teaming. Additionally, he served as the Director of Intelligence for Theater Special Operations Command-North, which required extensive collaboration and partnering across the U.S. whole of government security enterprise. He designed a cohesive and collaborative counter-terrorism network with Department of Defense, Law Enforcement, and Inter-Agency partners, while simultaneously bridging strong relationships with coalition partners to further extend his security reach in an effort to protect the homeland. Bill also brings extensive experience in operational/technical security from his combat deployments to Iraq, where he commanded two large bases and operationally operated in Al Anbar, Dhi Qar, and Basra Provinces focusing primarily on operations and security in these areas. During this time period, he oversaw the planning and execution of all base infrastructure including the implementation and operation of complex U.S. base security measures.
30 min. with Bill Edwards
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